19. Compassion, Optimism, & Practical Wisdom To Prevent Burnout w/ Madina Estephan, MD, MPH, CWO

This episode records from Paris, France where we discuss the impact of COVID, keys to resilience for healthcare professionals, and practical wisdom to prevent burnout.

Ranked a Top 60 Healthcare Leadership podcast by Feedspot.

Dr. Estephan on LinkedIn:

https://maison-estephan.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/madinaestephanhealthcarecwo/

Music Credit:

Jason Shaw www.Audionautix.com

THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

To help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts, we’d love to offer polished show notes. However, Swift Healthcare is in its first year. 

What we can offer currently are these imperfect show notes. The transcription is far from perfect. But hopefully it’s close enough - even with the errors - to give those who aren’t able or inclined to audio interviews a way to participate.  Please enjoy!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:00] Welcome folks to another episode of the Swift healthcare podcast . I'm Patrick Swift, your host, and I want to thank you for being here. Thank you for listening from South Africa and Latin America and Europe and the United States and all over. I'm grateful for our listeners and thank you for your support, uh, for the podcast as well. So for our show today, I have a wonderful guest, Dr. Madina Estephan, Madina . Welcome to the show.

[00:00:24] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:00:24] Hello. Hello, Dr. Swift . Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm so glad to be here today on show.

[00:00:34] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:34] I'm delighted you're here. I know that I know you used the word to let it all the time because I am delighted. Uh, and I'm so delighted to hear folks. Um, Dr. Estephan  Madina , uh, is in Paris, France. And so I'm just like jump up and down. Pinch myself, excited, having been to Paris, having a great love for Paris as in American, how wonderful it is to have a guest on the show that's  broadcasting from Paris, so, and a physician from Paris. So. [00:01:00] Here's Dr. Madina Estephan's  bio coming from a family of three generations of healthcare professionals. Dr. Estefan, whose  passion for the medical field was inspired at an early age. Can you imagined growing up at that household? , it led her to earn a medical degree. Obtain a master's degree in public health and as a multilingual multicultural health professional with over 20 years, clinical practice and international management experience, her career has been focused on training and consultancy. And she's focused on empowering you.

[00:01:31] She's focused on empowering healthcare professionals, healthcare leaders, healthcare providers, um, to unfold their therapeutic excellence. Unlock internal resources and unleash practical wisdom. I love that. I think we could all, you know, I got some gray hairs and lost all the hair on the top of my head. I think we could all use some, um, some wisdom and practical tools.

[00:01:51] So we're focusing on compassion, optimism, and practical wisdom for this episode. So that being said, Dr. [00:02:00] Estefan, let's just jump in Medina or a question here. Um, you know, welcome to the show from Paris. What's going on in Paris, right in here. What's the what's what's the latest. How, how, how are things.

[00:02:12]Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:02:12] Listen, the good news. I have two news. Good news. Bad news. I'll start with the good one. The good news is that we have wonderful weather and the spring came. And so, uh, that's, uh, gives your energy, right? And the other staff is that we were in the middle of the pandemic. That's a bad piece of news, but we're rather struggling and the making all the best in the healthcare systems,  this, , third wave  slowly but surely so, and hopefully we'll be over that. And then we will welcome guests from the other side of a planet in Paris. One day.

[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:03:00] Of course, of course I was listening to BBC and, uh, yesterday world service. And, um, there was a piece on, I believe, 80,000 new cases and, , you as a leader in, um, services and consulting and support, um, I know that you're in the middle of, , , helping healthcare professionals, , dealing with the burnout and the struggle and the pandemic and, and for the show, we're focusing on compassion, practical wisdom, and optimism.

[00:03:30] One of the things you talk about as soft skills and the importance of soft skills, and I would call them survival skills as well. What are the, what are the soft skills that, that healthcare professionals can be mindful of in their daily life right now? Just to get through everything going on.

[00:03:49] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:03:49] So you're absolutely right. It's not only survival skills. So I will say like French people also, so savoir vivre , right. Uh, [00:04:00] to know how to leave, you have to know  to know how to be in Samoa fair, to know what to do. So let's call them survival or even human skills or skills of how to be, right. So, because somewhere what to do, we know as healthcare professionals and patient is expecting from us, the knowledge they expertize.

[00:04:32] So knowledge in your specific specialty, the hard knowledge, right? And the other side, we need those survival skills, uh, to know how to be ourself, how to protect ourselves, how to give the best of ourselves. Right. So, and amongst those soft skills for me, there are some which is absolutely [00:05:00] necessary to have in your toolbox, like a tool of books, like compassion, optimism, or those ma uh, practical wisdom skills, which are in a capacity.

[00:05:14] I think of the health care professionals. So, and when talking about compassion, Coming from the Latin word com passion , literally, which means I suffer with is the capacity of feeling suffering of the other's pain. Right. But all the other sides there is another part of the story is the willingness to act and do something to relieve suffering from the other one .

[00:05:45] Right. This is the, the, uh, the most, let's say demanding part of the compassion to be compassionate. I like the composition  that compassion is in love in [00:06:00] action. It means to be able to put. Some kind of action plan to relieve the suffering from others. But as healthcare professionals, we're deeply suffering ourselves.

[00:06:14] Right? When we exercising our duty everyday duty activities, we have plenty of professional risks. There, including emotional exhaustion, distress, burnout, et cetera, and, uh, compassion, fatigue. So, first of all, we have to learn how to be compassionate with ourself, right. To stop and use the skills of compassion toward ourselves as the healthcare professionals and be able to them.

[00:06:48] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:06:48] I'm so glad you said that because it's about. If, if we are reminded every day to be compassionate with our selves with ourselves, it's still not enough. [00:07:00] We in the health care profession, you saying the importance of self compassion and for a listener right now, whether you're a healthcare leader, healthcare provider, um, healthcare professional, anyone working in healthcare, uh, Dr. Estephan's . Voice I'm telling you the importance of self-compassion. We needed that every day, uh, to be compassionate with ourselves and, and Medina, you speak about, um, emotional assertiveness of, of, um, come across some things you've written. And, um, I would appreciate your thoughts about emotional assertiveness in light of preventing burnout or addressing burnout or reducing burnout.

[00:07:38] What's the importance of emotional assertiveness? What's that about?

[00:07:43] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:07:43] Thank you Patrick, for this question because emotional assertiveness actually is a tool. Let's say, well, it's not invented by me. It was invented by invented or concept alive by John Parr, who is a UK, uh, doctor of [00:08:00] psychology. And actually it's a kind of tool which helps you regulate difficult emotions.

[00:08:09]Okay. In the way of understanding that we all are looking for the inner state of happiness, right? And this inner state of happiness can be of different degree for, from calm to joy. Right. And to get the Zener state of happiness we're always handling or, um, uh, facing different type of emotions. I, those emotions, the principal one is an anger.

[00:08:42] When something's going on around ourselves, in the environment, something goes wrong. We react in the first reaction is always anger. Then there can be anger, which is not expressed. Right. And then w [00:09:00] we can not handle the singer or express it authentic when it's happened. We're going to. focus  and anger deeply inside of ourself and hurting somewhere else, self knowing what's going on with you, internalized anger, which is actually the part of the story.

[00:09:23]So facing these anger and be able to express anger in the right manner and the right place with the right person is the kind of emotional assertiveness . Yes.

[00:09:38] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:09:38] I love it. I love it. The notion of being angry at the right person at the right reason at the right time,

[00:09:45] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:09:45] authentically  yes, typically affected that's that's the most important and how to learn, how to, to learn, to express the singer. First of all, to feel it, to [00:10:00] understand why, where. And from which part of you is coming from the past experience over the future experience, and then anchor yourself here in here now.

[00:10:11] So emotional assertiveness  to express your rights and do what is right to do without harming others and taking the right of others.

[00:10:24] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:10:24] Beautiful. Beautiful. And these are all critical, um, skills, soft skills, emotional assertiveness, that the self-reflection what you're speaking about or that self-awareness and applying it. I want to move on to, um, the current pandemic and what that's revealed. Um, is it the bottom, if there were an iceberg, uh, going on right now in healthcare, um, uh, what has the pandemic revealed? Is that the bottom of the iceberg of the challenges we're facing in healthcare? Preventing Burnout.  What's that iceberg? What's the bottom of the iceberg right now, in your perspective.

[00:11:00] [00:11:00] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:11:00] Yeah. Uh, I think the, the bottom of the iceberg is there. We don't, I mean, we all know that, uh, exercise as a healthcare professional, where facing the professional risks of mental health or physical health risks. And mental health risks because they are known . Right. We know that the burnout among  the healthcare professionals are, uh, the risk of burnout is higher than a different to other professions. Right. Uh, and the risk of mental health problems . Is, especially during the pandemic, most evident, we have a more anxiety depression, suicide, uh, amongst the healthcare professionals. That was the recent reports and servers are showing from different countries, right from the UK, from United States, from France. And, uh, we faced also the. tremendous amount of health, [00:12:00] healthcare professionals quitting their  job. I mean, there have been 10,000 nurses since the pandemic in France who quit their jobs and they don't want to continue. Yeah. It just in   France, hundreds, thousands in the UK, 8,000 midwives . Every second physician in France declared to be burnout declared. So it's auto declaration means that it's a largely underestimated. So, uh, um, pandemic previous,

[00:12:36] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:12:36] if I may jump in and it's perfect, there's a siren in the background and Paris right now. It's, it's, there's a siren going around the planet have you seen. um, it's, it's, it's R it's poetic that that's happening. And so this is an elephant in the room in healthcare. And so why do you think burnout remains an elephant in the room in healthcare?

[00:13:01] [00:13:00] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:13:01] We know this elephant, right   from long, long ago, many, many years, why it remains ? Because. From my side. I think system is itself. It's a rigid system, right? And to me maintaining the, uh, the heirarchical system or rigid system, um, they do not have interests to give the power or to empower the healthcare professionals.

[00:13:33] Completely, that's one on the other side, this elephant, everyone is looking from the different parts. I mean, we are completely blinded. You're like blinded, but absolutely. And you are looking from the side of the head, I'm looking on the size of the tail and each one is giving their own prescriptions what to do and how to make sure that this elephant can be okay. Yeah. taken [00:14:00] off  from this room. Without crashing the whole house and somewhere we are afraid  to do so, because we don't know exactly from what to start. From

[00:14:14] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:14:14] fear and the

[00:14:14] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:14:14] I'm convinced that yeah. Fear and emotions. Yeah. Fear, fear, fear, because it's unknown. What's going to happen doctor, but I'm convinced that the, the, uh, strengths which community can bring each individual can bring. In healthcare system is enormous. I mean, giving the power to doctors, giving the power to healthcare professionals, empower them, giving them skills, right? Skills of leadership, the survival skills to exercise better. Their professional protect themselves from the, uh, professional risks will somewhere [00:15:00] makes this elephant  smaller. Then we need systemic changes. Of course, organizational and other.

[00:15:07] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:15:07] So true. So true. So true. And I, as a side note, I have to apologize about the over-talking. Um, there's a little delay US to Paris. So my apologies, if I've, I've been I've, over-talked what you've been saying here, but I want to move to, um, practical wisdom as well. We're talking about compassion, optimism, practical wisdom.

[00:15:26] Um, what are your thoughts about what are, what are, what is some practical wisdom? Number one? What's your sense of what practical wisdom is is to, um, what are some, um, perspectives that healthcare professionals can embrace or use to help improve themselves their lives, address, burnout, address their professional development, um, what's practical wisdom. And then how does it apply to what we're doing as healthcare professionals

[00:15:51] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:15:51] it's a great question, Patrick. Great question. And

[00:15:58] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:15:58] in five minutes?

[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:16:00] tons of literature, tons of publication on the subject into words. Okay. So, um, I found the great definition of Leo Tolstoy, but I will give it to you later. I think as a physicians, we're really, uh, trained to face the, uh, uncertain situations. Unpredictable sometimes situations. And we're definitely that case. Now our Canadian colleagues are using the abbreviation CINE .

[00:16:42] To describe what's going on with pandemic C is control, no control, right? Or difficult to control. I is unpredictable because we, I don't know if there will be another fourth or fifths wave and so on and how the patients are reacting. [00:17:00] We know better than disease now situation now, but still there's some unpredictability, right? CINE, and it's a new, it was new for everyone. We never faced it before. Right. And in healthcare we used sometimes on the new situations, which never faced before. And an E is ego or threat to ego threat to ego. Uh, currently we have direct threat to healthcare professionals, health. Right and threat to the health of the patient.

[00:17:35] So anyway as a healthcare professional. So world were used to these four factors and we, as much as we can find solutions, so solutions are by Aristotle thought was needed. The prudence or practical wisdom or pronounces, right. Is knowing. [00:18:00] The right thing to do in a particular circumstances, through understanding those circumstances, rightly knowing what metric matters and effective means and reasoning to bring out what matters it means for me, it is a healthcare practice practitioners.

[00:18:24] We can't know everything. We can't have all the knowledge, but knowing what is not necessary or less necessarily, well, even not to at all necessary somewhere is the capacity of putting right action in the right place. So those famous wisdom skills, and also we can look at some wisdom skills, the skills of self regulation self-reflection [00:19:00] taking action , uh, without us, uh, socially oriented to actions who pro-social behaviors. Right? So, uh, Starting from that we can cultivate it. We can nurture cultivate and have the kind of tools and programs to strengthen them or to bring them on the surface to practice them. Yeah.

[00:19:29] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:19:29] Madina Estephan  THAT is practical wisdom. I, uh, I appreciate that perspective. Love that. Love it. And, and let me ask you my favorite question to ask my guests, which is If you had the attention of all the healthcare professionals around the planet for a brief moment and all of us, what would you say to us?

[00:19:47]Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:19:47] I know how difficult is it right now? And many of you are on the front line and many of you  can feel alone  and [00:20:00] can feel hopeless. Uh, I would say asking for help is not a kind of weakness or despair. It's the sign of strengths and resolution, and actually it's a part of problem solving. So asking for help actually is a part of the problem solving.

[00:20:30] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:30] I love it. I love it. I love your encouragement for folks to be aware that it's not a sign of weakness. It's actually a sign of strength to ask for help. Uh, we,

[00:20:39] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:20:39] Thanks and resolution. Yeah.

[00:20:42] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:42] we can. I only do this together. This is not about just, um, this is not about the ego. It's about, it's about caring. It's about concern. It's about compassion. So beautifully said, Madina . If folks are interested in following up with you, um, where, where can they go?

[00:21:00] [00:21:00] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:21:00] They can easily find me on LinkedIn and I would reply to everyone who is interested.

[00:21:07] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:21:07] Outstanding. Well, I will be including, , your LinkedIn, uh, link on the, uh, the show notes for the show. And of course your name will be in the graphic below you. So folks can look you up that way. So, and we're connected. So folks can connect through me through LinkedIn. If, if, um, you don't see her, but please take a look, uh, find, uh, Dr. Madina Estephan , um, wonderful resource, a lot of practical wisdom, , making a huge difference in the work she does. So, , Dr. Estephan , I wanna thank you for being on the show and thank you for all the work you're doing for, for helping, uh, healthcare professionals in these difficult times.

[00:21:42] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:21:42] Thank you Patrick and thank you for inviting me on your show.

[00:21:46] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:21:46] My pleasure. All right. Well be well, and my best, my send my love to Paris.

[00:21:53] Madina Estephan, MD, MPH: [00:21:53] Accepted