22. How to Deal with Resistance Lead Effectively & Find Joy in Your Work

How do you Deal with Resistance, Lead Effectively, & Find Joy in Your Work? Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC guests on Swift Healthcare Podcast where we discuss all this and more! Tune in because you do not want to miss it!

 

Ranked a Top 60 Healthcare Leadership podcast by Feedspot.

 

Nancy Jacoby on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/njacobyfache/

 

Music Credit: Jason Shaw from Audionautix.com

 

THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

To help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts, we’d love to offer polished show notes. However, Swift Healthcare is in its first year. 

What we can offer currently are these imperfect show notes. The transcription is far from perfect. But hopefully it’s close enough - even with the errors - to give those who aren’t able or inclined to audio interviews a way to participate.  Please enjoy!

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:00] Welcome folks to another episode of the Swift healthcare video podcast. I'm Patrick Swift, your host, I'm so excited about Nancy Jacoby being on the show. Nancy, welcome to the show.

[00:00:08] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:00:08] Thank you, Patrick. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

[00:00:11]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:11] It's a joy and the title of our show here is how to deal with resistance lead effectively and find joy in your work. I love that. And so folks, let me share with you Nancy's bio here, which I love doing the top of the show. Nancy Jacoby is a former healthcare executive with 25 years of experience in the industry. She's a board certified. She is board certified in healthcare management by the American college of healthcare executives and is a fellow of the college go ACHE. I'm a FACHE as well. So I'm delighted that you're on the show prior to serving in leadership positions, Nancy, as a registered nurse with a passion for caring for the geriatric patients, she's actually still licensed in two States and she founded Nancy Jacoby [00:01:00] consulting and Nancy Jacoby coaching and consulting. And I have to call out that you went to Xavier university in Cincinnati. Having a great love for the Jesuits. I got, I got to give a shout out for your you're a Jesuit education and being a Xavier.

[00:01:13] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:01:13] That's right. I'm proud to be a Xavier alum.

[00:01:16] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:01:16] Outstanding. So we're going to talk about how to deal with resistance lead effectively and find joy at work. And if I may, let me also ask you, we did a little prep folks on before the show and about, you know, the arc of the book. Podcasts we're taping here, but I want to also ask you what got you into health care. If I may what drew you into healthcare and the passion you have because it's so strong and the impact you're having you know, what's your, what's your, why? What drew you into healthcare?

[00:01:44] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:01:44] Well, you know, Patrick, it's funny because you know, you fill out these child books that your parents give you, you know, year by year with, you know, your grade school teacher and your friends. And what do you want to be when you grow up and early on, I identified looking back, I identified a lot of focus [00:02:00] on. What I would call helping professions, you know, being a nurse, being a teacher and nurse stayed there for a good couple of years. Right. And you know, when I, when I first went to college at Xavier I started out as a psych major because I always had a gravitation towards people with, you know, emotional health needs. And I just, I got attracted to nursing because I felt like I could serve the whole patient and the whole person. And the mission of caring for the sick. I mean, what, what's more noble than that, right? I've always been attracted to something where in some way, shape or form, I'm going to have an impact. That's more than just on paper. Like I wanted to have a tangible impact

[00:02:44] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:02:44] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:45] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:02:45] and that that's, that's really what drew me to nursing. And. It drew me into healthcare administration, believe it or not, because I could make an impact on so many different levels. You know, people might say, well, that sounds [00:03:00] strange. How do you do that? Well, because you can, you can touch the patient. You can touch the organization. And then in a leadership role, you have the awesome responsibility to lead mentor and develop others. And it was probably one of the most fulfilling parts of my job.

[00:03:17] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:03:17] Aw. Oh, I mean, it's really, I love that because it's, it's pulling together all of the intention you had of being in the helping profession, even as a young person. And then, and then being in the workforce and being a healer and coaching and helping others heal and. You know, I hope listeners are thinking about what got you into health care yourself, or if you're thinking about healthcare the show is for, from the CEO to the new employee, to the aspiring healthcare professional we all can learn, we can all find inspiration and joy from each other.

[00:03:45] And thinking about what drew you into healthcare, Nancy I think is beautiful for our listeners also to think about what drew you into healthcare. Cause hell if we can connect more and more to a purpose, it is a protective. Barrier protective factor from [00:04:00] burnout. Because if we're dealing with burnout, one of the biggest things we can do is connect to our meaning and purpose. And so I love you sharing that short story as a neuropsychologist. I know listeners can't help, but be thinking about that question for themselves. Well, why am I doing this? And it gets back to purpose. So. One of the challenges in dealing with burnout, whether you're a provider, whether you're a physician, a nurse, a clinician, or a leader, or both is we all deal with resistance. And so I'd love to, I love this. You've got amazing blog. You've got a lot of great content out there. Let's talk about, here's the question? What do you mean by making friends with resistance?

[00:04:38] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:04:38] Absolutely. And people who are listening right now, they, they must be thinking, you're crazy. How can you make friends with resistance? Right. It's, you know, it's funny because when people think of resistance, a lot of the times it's, it's something negative, you know? So if I'm doing a workshop or if I'm having a conversation like this, when I, when I ask people, well, what's the first thing that comes to mind. When you think of resistance, it's [00:05:00] often negative words like, you know, right. I hear words like obstacle, blockade, stubborn impeding progress, you know challenge, you know, conflict. Right. And it doesn't have to be that way because resistance is really a natural part of any change that we're bringing to the table. Whether it's

[00:05:22] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:05:22] And you said the change work. Cause then people, then we can't help, but think of like, Oh, blood pressure. Right. And what you're doing is normalizing that normal part of what we do, right?

[00:05:33] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:05:33] absolute normal part of what we do, whether whether we're undergoing an individual change that we think might be very simple, or whether we're helping a team go through a change or, you know, Patrick at the organizational level, if we're doing something huge, you know, like a merger and we're going to bring two organizations together, like. The potential for resistance there on so many levels is very high because it's normal. It's, [00:06:00] it's, it's, it's like a friend that you have next to you all the time. Just welcoming it to the table and saying, I know you're here. Glad you're here with us. Let's figure out how to use you.

[00:06:11] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:06:11] I love that angle about how to then use resistance, because I love to contemplate the notion of the yoga of healthcare being a meditator and, and the notion of. Yoga of healthcare, this notion of developing our flexibility and our, our, our, our, our skills and our abilities and using resistance as part of the physical yoga. But here, you're talking about using resistance  to be more. More, whether it's effective, be more healthy, to be more happy to be more effective as a leader, this, this you know, you've written it can be a gift. So what are your thoughts about, you know, how, how is resistance a gift?

[00:06:53] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:06:53] Absolutely. Well, you know, if you think about why re why we resist, right. [00:07:00] Oftentimes on some level, there's some sort of fear factor in there, whether it's, you know, at the individual level we're undergoing some sort of change or we're trying something new, right. We may be kind of afraid of it. Going back to that big organizational context, like, you know, Holy smokes, we're bringing two organizations together. And. This is huge, right? It's huge on so many levels. We're bringing together cultures and finances and teams and information systems, all these things that are coming together when the resistance is coming to the table. And you know, it's funny. Cause I, I read a great book about resistance, a guy named Rick Mauer wrote beyond the wall of resistance and he talks about three levels of resistance.

[00:07:43] And when I think about some of the projects that I've led in healthcare, it's, it's just so on the money because when resistance shows up, it can, it can tell us three things. It can tell us that, all right, we don't, we don't get what's going on. Like, you know, the, I don't get it. I don't, I don't understand this. [00:08:00] Like, I don't understand this change. I don't understand the parts. Right. It could tell us that. Okay, we get it. But we just don't like it. Right. So it's like, I understand we're merging. I understand we're doing this and I am, I don't like it. And oftentimes when that's happening there is that very, very strong fear, underlying, underlying what's in there.

[00:08:25] Right. And then on the third level, there's, there's the resistance that comes to the table. I don't like you. And when he says, I don't like you, it's not necessarily, I don't like you, Patrick. It's, there's something here that I don't trust. Maybe it's something from the past, you know, let's say, you know, you and I are working on a merger team together. And we met in a past life. We were on a project and somehow I wronged you or I did something that violated your values. You don't trust me. And you're showing up with it. The point of talking about all of this is that. In those three [00:09:00] levels of resistance, there is so much information that's coming to the table.

[00:09:05] If we just pay enough attention to what's really going on. So a lot of the times when resistance shows up, particularly on a team where, you know, we're doing some serious business in healthcare, those these are high stakes patients' lives are at risks. Profit margins are at risk. I mean, we we've got some fundamentally serious stuff going on here. It's easy to, to knee-jerk and take things personally and be very wrong active, but really when it, when we think about resistance showing up, it's, it's a gift because it's giving us so much information into the state of mind, of our team members and what they're thinking and what they're feeling. And it's telling them, it's telling us, Hey, slow down leader. Pay attention to what's going on here, because there could be some knowledge in here that's useful to you in whatever you're trying to do with your team, with your department, with your organization.

[00:09:57] Hmm.

[00:09:57] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:09:57] I appreciate that. Cause you're you, you touched on [00:10:00] resistance being. I don't, I don't get it. I don't understand it. I, I, I understand it, but don't like it On a personal level. The interaction, the dyad, the pair, the the, I don't like you or trust you. And you're touching on the great wisdom there because it's not just leaders, but heck listeners may have a coworker that they're in a clinical setting or they're in finance or in their they're in other departments, whether you're frontline back office, there's always that. Resistance that can occur in the workplace. Right. And you're touching on some wisdom that people can practically, at least you're starting to, with the awareness. I mean, earlier I was reading your bio increasing awareness because once you're aware, then you can do something about it. If you're coming to the table and saying, I don't get this, or I don't like it, I get it. I don't like it, or I don't trust it as person. Practically. Is there coaching suggestion that you have folks for how to turn that into a gift?

[00:10:56] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:10:56] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when, when you're thinking [00:11:00] about, you know, the fear factor or the trust factor, it's I tell my clients it's a wonderful time. To sit down and engage in conversation with whatever is bringing that resistance. So if it's if it's you know, face-to-face kind of conflict or there's a one-to-one relationship where something's amiss or, you know, you're leading a team and you're sensing good grief, this dynamic is just not feeling good. And this is, this is really getting in the way it's I, instead of running away from it, which. People want to do, because sometimes this is uncomfortable. Patrick, it's uncomfortable to engage in these sorts of things. I tell them, this is the precise time to lean in with your authentic self and get curious about what's going on with you. What's going on with this team, but then being a leader, you know, what's going on with us, like, you know, asking those questions and getting to what I [00:12:00] call the why's. And, you know, peeling back that onion and saying, let's, let's dig in here and really, you know, understand with a spirit of compassion and generosity, you know, how we can, how we can use this fear or how we can learn from what's happened with, you know a misunderstanding that created this.

[00:12:22] This lack of trust, if you will, you know, really, really showing up with a transparency with an openness. And then, you know, just thinking back to a client situation, I had the other day where we talked through how he was going to approach somebody who he had wronged and showing up and saying, you know, look, I I'm aware that this happened in the past and I, and I want to tell you, I'm sorry, I understand that I've, I've hurt you. And I understand that this is what I did, and it made you feel this way and I'm going to do my best to. To show up better and to repair this. So it's, it's really about coming to the table and leaning in engaging and being [00:13:00] curious.

[00:13:01] And then there's an element of accountability where it's like owning your role in, you know, am I, am I triggering resistance in somebody or am I triggering resistance in my team because I'm, maybe I'm not leaning in enough or, you know, maybe I'm. I'm rushing things when it comes to just, you know, pounding this change through, because Patrick you've been in healthcare long enough, you know, the deadlines are fierce, the pressure is high. You know, the stress is huge, right. And we're all well-intentioned people. And we bring to that table that high achieving excellence, we're going to get it done. But I Al I always remind people of what costs right.

[00:13:40] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:13:40] right. Yeah, because ultimately it's about people and not the numbers. And you said a lot of great content there. And, and I just comment on the lean in. I'm glad you said lean in. Because of the back of my mind, I am thinking it's, it's your message here. I'm hearing and feeling is that when there is resistance, you've essentially got a choice. We've [00:14:00] got a choice we withdraw and we may end up avoiding something and may have a short-term benefit from it, but we lose. When we disengage actually we, we hurt ourselves. And so if there's a listener, I want to encourage folks to think about what resistance you may be facing in your day. Well, heck and your personal life too, but in your workflow work-life if you're, if you're leaning back. And what consequences having, as opposed to leaning into it. And you said the word compassion earlier, and I was pleased and like surprised because it does tie into this and that's a practical wisdom that the benefit of coaching and you and I, both coach people and. It's more than just effectiveness and outcomes and, and these, these numerically driven concepts, but the deeper, more meaningful about compassion and meaning and joy, you know, this, the episode being titled the how to deal with resistance lead effectively and find joy at work. [00:15:00] I love that you touched on, on, on the, the compassion and, and so how does one Navigate this any other  story that comes to mind that that, that was inspiring that you came across.

[00:15:12] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:15:12] You know, it's, it's funny because I, I had changed jobs at one point and I was meeting with a new, very senior physician who, was in a very senior position on his service. And yeah, I'm brand new and I'm in my suit and pearls and I'm going to meet him, you know, as the new administrator. Right. You know, all excited to meet this guy. Well, Patrick, this guy was not excited to meet me. So I get into his office, you know, he's got all the diplomas on the wall and things going on, right. He's in his white coat with a  shirt and tie . Right. He's got his arms folded and it's glaring at know, I'm thinking, Oh dear, this is going to be fun. Right. And you know, after I greet him, you know, I'm Nancy Jacoby, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know why you're here. I don't need you here. I don't want you here [00:16:00] now. You're you're talking about some serious, some serious levels of resistance going, right. I think we got, I think we got a winner here. You both. Right.

[00:16:10] And you know, if I think about it, you know, retrospectively, I understand why, because a lot of administrators that he dealt with, you know, come in. And the first thing that I want to do is cut his budget and come in and tell him everything he's doing wrong and everything that he should be doing. And here's what you should do. And start like nine different change initiatives at a time and boss him around. So what he's thinking, you know, so I'm. In my little suit and pearls, I'm representing the administrators that have been in the past and he's thinking, Oh, here's another flavor of the month. That's going to come in and, you know, whack my budget and tell me what to do. And I said, all right. So in coaching mode, meet the person where they are. Right. You know, so I said to him, all right, You know, I'm really glad you shared that with me. And, and I appreciate your candor and, you know, I understand that it's frustrating to have new people come in and what I really want to do with [00:17:00] you today, if it's all right with you is just to learn from you because I'm, I'm new and I'd really appreciate you sharing with me. What's going on on the service and what are the challenges that you're facing right now? You know, what's keeping you up at night. And then maybe you and I could talk about if there's any possible way that I could help you, you know, at some point, yeah. Let's, let's just kind of hash that out and he kind of settled down a little bit and, and I'm not saying that, you know, we were peas and carrots from that day. We were not, it took a lot of time. Patrick was me, you know, showing up at his office, you know, showing up at his office again, showing up at his office. The same sorts of thing until , one day he, he looked at me, he said, you, you want to know, what's keeping me up at night, come over to this computer.

[00:17:45] I want to show you this, you know, this EMR, I want to show you how many clicks I have to make. And I'm like, okay, okay. We're getting somewhere. Right. Yeah. So fast forward, working with him, working with the team, we did get to be peas and carrots and it did [00:18:00] get to be a really great relationship. But, you know, you really, you really have to hang in there and make, be that way and lean in and get curious about, you know, what, you know, why is this guy so upset? He's you said something before about intention. When we were talking about, you know, why I got into health care and nursing. So intention for a minute, thinking about resistance because we're humans and the logical place, sometimes that we go is, Oh my God, this guy is such a pain in the neck. Why is he being this way? If we just stop and say, all right, this guy's human to who like what's what's hap right compassion. Like what's, what's happened to him. That's creating this reaction. Like what, what is it about me? That's causing him to feel this way. And then how, how can I help?

[00:18:45] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:18:45] ties beautifully to, to values. You know, one of the thing I want to ask you is what what am I values have to do with it, of how to lean into resistance? How does that tie into it, Nancy?

[00:18:55] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:18:55] Yeah. Well, you know, Patrick, for me, two of the most important [00:19:00] values at my core are integrity and courage. Right? So. Saying saying what we mean, meaning what we say, doing what we say we're going to do and saying what we're going to do and having all of those match. So if I'm going to, if I'm going to call myself a leader, right. But then I'm when, when things are hitting the fan, so to speak, or I've got a difficult conversation or, you know, there's something brewing, whatever you want to call it. If I'm kind of shirking away, you know, you know, I don't, I don't want to deal with that. Right. There's a misalignment for me there. Right. We, we. I believe we have to have the courage to go there and open up that box and say, you know, listen, and, you know, showing up with our compassionate selves because I know in healthcare we're compassionate, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Right. So there's my third value is I would, I would call it really kindness. That's the way I think about it. But, you know, integrity, courage and kindness, you know, leading with those three values. at [00:20:00] core

[00:20:01] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:01] I really appreciate that Nancy, because it is protection from burnout by knowing what your values are and for our listeners, I want to encourage folks to what are your values? Because when, when the proverbial stuff hits the fan to fit hits the Shan what are you, what are you falling back on? What are we falling back on? You're touching on something I think really is beautiful. Personally professionally as a leader, as a healthcare person, Whatever your role is, if you, if you have a strong sense of what your values are, if you have some clarity, your value, you're speaking about being able to have a clarity of your values that then helps dealing with resistance and not only dealing with it, but making it your friend and you be it. I think he did a beautiful job of it's like this is a martial arts jujitsu of as opposed to going against the resistance to actually. hapkido , I think with the, with the letting, letting that resistance flow like that physician example you gave instead of obliquely going head on and [00:21:00] banging into people to, to be able to lean in with, and this takes courage.

[00:21:04] This takes courage, what you're talking about. So with the episode title here, how do we deal with resistance lead effectively and find joy at work? I trust that that listeners are getting a better sense of how to deal with resistance, how to lead more effectively. By having that clarity to be able to join with folks, whether it's on a personal leadership level or you're a CEO of a hospital I don't care. We're all human beings walking each other home. And there can be joy in that. So I love that you talking about the values and. And that leads me to be able to ask you my favorite question as my guests, which is if you, for a brief moment had the attention of all the healthcare people around the whole planet for a brief moment, what would you say to us?

[00:21:46] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:21:46] Oh, gosh, you know, I would say, I would say healthcare is a serious business and we deal with some pretty serious stuff. Right. But we don't always have to be so serious. So, you know, I would say [00:22:00] laugh, love, relax, and, and enjoy the ride

[00:22:03]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:22:03] Hmm. I really appreciate that, Nancy. And I think about when I was a young clinician, when I had hair, no gray and coming into the healthcare profession, there is the sense of the gravitas  of healthcare. I wish I had had that within my quiver of arrows when I started. To recognize. Yes, there's a gravitas,  but also the, to live laugh. Find that joy along the way. So thank you for saying that and for our listener if you're new to the profession God, hang on to that wisdom from Nancy. And if you're near the end of a career or nearing retirement, it's not too late. This is the time, especially in the face of everything we've been dealing with in healthcare. With burnout and COVID and, and changes and, and resistance and all of this to be able to find some joy in what we do. So thank you for sharing that Nancy. And I want to ask you, if folks are interested in following up with you and learning more [00:23:00] about what you do where can they go?

[00:23:03] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:23:03] Patrick, they can visit my website njacoby.com. I also have a great guide. If they're interested in learning more about resistance or want an exercise that they can go through when they're experiencing resistance, they can text outcomes to 42828 , and they'll get my free resistance guide that they can use over and over and over again, to help them navigate.

[00:23:23] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:23:23] Love it. That is so cool. Four, two eight, two eight.

[00:23:26] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:23:26] Four two eight, two eight

[00:23:28]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:23:28] want to encourage folks if you want to follow up please follow up on that. It's a great resource. I'll have that in the show notes for the, for the podcast asked on the, on the website, Swift healthcare slash podcast. And I encourage folks to check that out, but Nancy I'm so grateful that you could be on the show and just thank you for bringing you're you're strengthened, compassion and wisdom and experience to be able to share with folks.

[00:23:49] Nancy Jacoby RN, MBA, MHSA, FACHE, ACC: [00:23:49] Well, Patrick has been a true pleasure. Thank you for having me.